Dark Angels: Price Comparisons with 5th Ed Marines

I'm apparently still on a Dark Angels kick... probably because I don't want to work on my Guard anymore but still need to sit down and do some painting soon in order to be ready for Adepticon. Not to mention a display board...

Anyway. One thing that has really grabbed hold of my mind is comparing the Dark Angels and 5th Edition Marine codices and seeing exactly what the Dark Angels do better. We all know the differences between Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Codex Marines, but what special things beyond the Deathwing do Dark Angels have?

Let's start with a unit by unit analysis and then move on into play styles that these model choices lead to. I'll only be going over Dark Angels units that are at least potentially better than the 5th ed equivalents, so if I don't cover something it's worse than the 5th ed equivalent.

HQ

Belial: the big bad himself. Sure his stats are worse than a standard Captain but he comes at a price that can't be beat. A Captain with TH/SS would cost 40 pts more and only get +1 WS and Combat Tactics out of the deal, while Belial also gets to take Termies as Troops. Clear win for the big B here.

Chaplains: much better than their C:SM equivalent thanks to +1 BS, +1 A, cheaper combi-weapons and a cheaper bike. They do lose the ability to take terminator armor unless upgraded to an Interrogator-Chaplain, but he gets a third wound out of the deal. Speaking of which the Interrogator-Chaplain beats up his Blood Angels counter part the Reclusiarch by being at least 5 pts cheaper.

Sammael:in my opinion not as good as a biker boss from C:SM. Sure his bike can fly and has an underslung plasma cannon but neither ability plays very well with Ravenwing bike squads, not to mention the fact that he doesn’t have Scout. The other bikes can’t fly and they are generally armed with melta weaponry, which the PC doesn’t help out with a ton and is much more suited to shooting at 36” than 12. Adamantine mantle will protect him on his own for a bit but taking out 3 3+/4++ wounds on a T5 body shouldn’t be a problem.

His landspeeder form is a bit more palatable as it can use its AV 14 to good effect but needing to be within 24” to shoot brings him dangerously close to melta range which will end his day. I guess take him if you want biker troops, but otherwise he can stay on the shelf.


Elite

Deathwing Terminators: no surprise here, are awesome. They have the ability to be assault and shooty at the same time, plus scoring ability and 10 pts cheaper Cyclones. Take the CML and they only cost 5 more than the SM squad, though can’t upgrade to more than 5 terminators.

Dreadnoughts: normal ones compare poorly (more expensive, no TLAC build) but Venerable dreads might have a shot. They are 20 pts cheaper than the C:SM equivalent, but I'm not sure if that makes them worth it, especially since DA ven dreads aren’t WS/BS 5, so it’s purely a survivability upgrade. It could make sense on a podding/walking MM dread just to try to make sure it survives longer, but other than that Dreads are probably done better in the newer codexes. Still, if anyone needs a mobile multimelta it's the Dark Angels, so they might still have a shot depending on the build.

Troops

Tactical Squad: 5 man squads actually come out ahead of Codex Marines thanks to their ability to take a special weapon. It doesn't get the same discount as Codex tacticals but the chance to take a genuine flamer or meltagun rather than a combi version is gold. Their razorbacks are also only 5 pts more expensive with the TL Lascannon turret. Blood Angels assault squads still probably do this size better, as the cheaper, faster transports and ability to double up with a pistol sized special probably put them on top, not to mention Grey Hunters, but for a respectable Razor squad the Dark Angels can pull it off.

Fast Attack

Ravenwing Bike Squads: They are in an interesting position as they differ so radically from C:SM. Scout plus teleport homer plus fearless really adds on the points though. They do offer one of the few melta outlets in the army, so taking them as suicide anti-tank is an option. I don't really like them as Troops as they are rather difficult to keep alive due to their small squad size, especially with their intended role as melta-jockeys.

Fearless is a huge boon for the bikes given their fragile nature. Losing your bullet shield bike (if you could afford to take them) would normally get you zooming off the field, but Ravenwing melta bikers are good to the last drop. If your game plan doesn't involve them surviving long they can bring some much needed melta to the list. I still like vanilla bikers better, but scouting meltas make for one sweet alpha strike!

Landspeeders: the Typhoon is incredibly much better than any 5th ed equivalent. It does suffer from not being able to double up in a slot but when do you ever see Marine players do that? The MM speeders take the back seat here but can be added on as ablative wounds for your Typhoonsand/or a way to up the melta count in your army. Multimelta/Typhoon is probably the way to go here just to cram mo' melta into the list but the tried and true HB/Typhoon can also work.

Heavy Support

Whirlwinds: surprisingly cost the same for Dark Angels. Still probably not worth it (which is a shame, as I love the aesthetic), but at least they are not worse.

Devastators: Cost the same as Codex Devastators except for missile launchers which cost 5 pts more. If you like the other options they are just as viable, but especially in comparison to Blood Angel devs these guys take back seat.

Predators: Lascannon predators cost the same as their Codex equivalents, so are still pretty good buys. Autocannon preds, however, suffer as they cost 10 pts more.

Land Raiders: The Crusader is cheaper than any other marine book thanks to the free multimelta upgrade. Phobos (i.e. Godhammer lasers) is on par with other marine books.

Dedicated Transports

Rhinos cost the same, TL lascannon Razorbacks cost only 5 pts more. Drop pods are overcosted by 15 pts but don't have Drop Pod Assault, which could be seen as an advantage by some.


So, some themes that I'm seeing:

• Awesome terminators. They don't even need to score to be worth the cost as thunder hammer wielding bubble wrap that can fire missiles is pretty frikkin' awesome in my opinion. Of course scoring is always nice and the fact that you can field 45 terminators in a maxed out list is silly. Redundancy and resiliancy are your watch words here.
• Razorspam. Sure Dark Angels don't get the Lascannon-TWL Plasma Gun razors that everyone is cruising with these days but they can crank them out almost as easily as anyone else with better Troops options than Codex Marines. The Thunderbubble from above is very nice in this kind of list...
• Fast Attack is for melta. Chain fists help somewhat but nothing replaces the good ol' meltagun. Whether Ravenwing or Land Speeder, it's either here, Crusaders, combi-meltas or Tac squads. I still can't get over how expensive Ravenwing are but it's a toss up as to whether they are more valuable/survivable than Land Speeders point for point. Since melta is almost a necessity expect your Fast Attack slots to be filled each and every game.
• Quality Chaplains. These guys can seriously amp up the effectiveness of any squad in combat and are very cost effective to boot.

Well, that's what I got. What do you think of my assessments, and also do you think I'm right to focus only on the cost effective choices? As always, thanks for reading!


*The above image used without permission (but much love!) from Games-Workshop

Army List: DA ThunderRazor

Man, I am stuck with Dark Angels fever right now! To maybe help me get it out of my system, or possibly convince myself to start a DA army, army lists have been jumping into my head like crazy.

The thing that got me started on this list was looking at what parts of the DA codex are costed appropriately in comparison to the 5th ed Marine books. Super cheap Typhoons already popped out to me in my last list, but what shocked me to see was that DA razorbacks are actually fairly competitively priced, the twin-linked lascannon version only costing 5 pts more than the 5th ed version. What DA get out of the deal is the chance to take a 5-man tactical squad armed with an honest-to-God meltagun or flamer instead of the combi version that Codex marines have to deal with.

So let's see what we can do with this concept as a base. A Razorback with 5 tactical marines and a flamer costs 175 points, which is the exact same cost for a Codex Marine razor squad with a combi-flamer. 6 of them will set us back 1050. We’ll build on this by adding in 3 land speeders with a multimelta and incredibly cheap and awesome Typhoon launcher for 75 a piece, setting us back another 225 and taking us to 1275.

We’ve got another… 575 to go before we hit 1850. We still need an HQ, but unfortunately most of them are not as good as the Codex Marine equivalents. The one exception is the Chaplain which is actually better than the standard chaplain thanks to possessing an additional attack for the same price. He can throw on a combi-weapon (we’ll say a Flamer) for a total of 110.

We now have 465 left. That is almost enough for two Deathwing squads with CMLs and TH/SS, just 5 points over. We can make room for them by dropping the combi-weapon from the Chaplain and use the remaining 5 points to upgrade one of our CML termies to chainfist duty.

This gives us the following:

Chaplain- 100
Deathwing squad with 5 TH/SS Terminators, 1 with CML- 235
Deathwing squad with 4 TH/SS Terminators, 1 with CML, stormbolter and chain fist- 240
6 Tactical squads with flamer and TWL Lascannon Razorback- 175*6=1050
3 squads of 1 land speeder with MM and Typhoon launcher- 75*3=225

I'd love to give the Tac squads meltaguns but a) can't find the points and b) don't want this list to instantly crumble against horde. 6 flamers and 30 tactical marines should hopefully help a bit with that at close range, while three multimeltas and the chain fist will just have to do against any Land Raiders that show up.

Let’s take this concept to 2k as well. Dropping a tactical squad would give us 330 points, more enough to get a third CML Deathwing squad. We lose a lascannon but gain a rock hard unit with 2 missile shots- worth it in my opinion. We can use the remaining 95 pts to upgrade the Chaplain to Belial with TH/SS and give one of our Deathwing squads the Deathwing Standard (+1 attack), an Apothecary (FNP) and an assault cannon. And finally we can make one of our non-rock Deathwing squads into a troop choice as Belial allows Deathwing to be both elites and troops.

Belial with TH/SS- 130
2 Deathwing squads with 5 TH/SS Terminators, each with 1 CML- 235*2=470 (one of which is a troop choice)
Deathwing squad with 2 TH/SS Terminators, 1 TH/SS Apothecary, 1 TH/SS standard bearer and 1 assault cannon/power fist terminator- 270
5 Tactical squads with flamer and TWL Lascannon Razorback- 175*5=875
3 squads of 1 land speeder with MM and Typhoon launcher- 75*3=225

I'd love to squeeze in another assault cannon but I'd hate to take 10 points off of anything. Tactics are DW assault with the Apothecary's squad and another DW squad (your choice of troop or no troop) with Belial attached while blasting apart anything you can reach... which is everything. The other DW squad teleports in or walks on the board later to either contest or hold objectives, depending if it's a Troop choice or not.

With just a few changes to the FAQ suddenly Dark Angels are an army that has actual benefits over the other Marine codexes. I'll be back to determine some more cool tricks that this old dog has, but for now I wouldn't want my Guard army to feel lonely before Adepticon...

*Image above property of Games-Workshop

Army List: FLOURISH THE DEATHWING!

So, as everyone must have heard by now, the Dark Angels and Black Templars finally got their contracts with the Adeptus Mechanicus renewed and their shiny new shipments of 5th ed thunder hammers, storm shields and cyclone missile launchers have just arrived.

The Deathwing, of course, probably benefited the most from this change, as now they can run around with scoring, 2+/3++ thunder hammer wielding maniacs! This fact, along with the news that apparently the Dark Angels terminators can get greedy and wield TH/SS alongside their Cyclone Missile Launcher (CML) (Thanks DaveHowitzer for cluing me onto this!) immediately put me into list building mode.

From my perusal of the Dark Angels Codex it seems like there are a few key parts to a Deathwing list: Belial, Terminators, and Heavy Anti-Armor weapons.

Let's make an 1850 list as that's the most popular points limit in my area. I want my Deathwing to foot it as 2+/3++ is pretty darn reliable and buying expensive Land Raiders that die as soon as they get near the enemy is not exactly my idea of a good time.

We'll start with the man himself. Belial costs 130, so we'll add him in with the TH/SS load out as somebody forgot to give the master of the Deathwing a frikkin' Iron Halo and I hear invulnerable saves are the shiznit right now.

Next, an assortment of scoring hammernators. A squad with CML costs 235, so we'll take 6 of those. Since we're taking Belial one lucky squad can be upgraded with an Apothecary. Since the Dark Angels' medicae facilities ALSO got visited by the friendly neighborhood FAQ fairy he now grants FNP to his squad, making them, for all intents and purposes, INVINCIBLE. Finally 25 points buys us the Deathwing Standard which adds +1 attack to the unit carrying it.

Lessee... 130+235*6+30+25=1595, leaving us with 255 points to spend. Terminators hate Null Zone so a Librarian is unfortunately a necessary buy. He may only be leadership 9 and get pretty underwhelming powers but a full-board psychic hood is still pretty good. 150 points buys us a Libby with a combi-melta and Terminator armor, the latter so that he can join the teleport party and employ the former.

So, now that we have all of our Terminators in a row we need to talk about the elephant in the room, heavy anti-tank. While CMLs are nice at cracking tanks when it comes to Land Raiders and even Predators they don't do so hot. And, unfortunately, the Dark Angels aren't exactly spoiled for exciting ways to get melta in their list. Our options include:
-Ravenwing Attack Squadrons (scouting bikers)
-Ravenwing Support Squadrons (land speeders)
-Dreadnoughts
-Assault Cannon Terminators

Let's talk about the last option for a minute. Upgrading a Terminator to carry an Assault cannon costs 10 points more than for a CML but grants the possibility of Rending its way through 2+ saves and Land Raiders. Unfortunately it also comes at the cost of halved range and no TH/SS as it needs to replace a stormbolter. It still has the powerfist and plenty of buddies to take wounds but it is something to consider.

We currently have 105 points to play with, which means that we need to drop something. Dropping the Banner would get us enough for two speeders or three bikes with a meltagun or a Dreadnought with a multimelta. I'm not liking those options so let's try dropping a Terminator squad instead, bumping us up to 340 pts. Now we can afford:

3 land speeders with Multimelta/Typhoon launcher, 1 land speeder with Multimelta/Heavy Flamer, switch two CMLs to Assault Cannons/Chain Fists, two CML termies switch to Chain Fists
Two Ravenwing Attack Squads each with 3 bikers and a MM Attack Bike

The choice between these two is a tough one. The Land Speeders bring incredibly cheap Typhoon launchers and 4 melta shots at 3 targets, plus the option of Heavy Flamers for anti-infantry. The bikes are easier to hide and can offer great first strike potential thanks to their teleport homers. Just drop some termies off for side shots and next turn assaults and then try to smash tanks while staying alive. In the end I think the cheap Typhoons will win me over but for more accurate Deathwing assaults the bikes might be the better option.

So- what do we have?
Belial with TH/SS
Librarian in Terminator Armor with combi-melta
1*5 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS and 1 CML
2*4 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS, 1 with CML, stormbolter and chain fist
1*5 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS and the Deathwing banner, Apothecary, 1 Terminator with Assault Cannon/Chain Fist
1*4 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS, 1 Terminator with Assault Cannon/Chain Fist
2 Ravenwing Support Squadrons with 1 Typhoon/MM speeder
Ravenwing Support Squadron with 1 Hvy Flamer/MM speeder and 1 Typhoon/MM speeder

10 CML/Typhoon shots at 5 different targets, 8 Assault cannon shots at 2 different targets, 4 MM shots at 3 different targets, 2 heavy flamers plus a single-shot meltagun.

For taking the list to 2k I'd go for something like this:

Belial with TH/SS
Librarian in Terminator Armor with combi-melta
1*5 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS, CML
2*4 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS, 1 with CML, stormbolter and chain fist
4 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS (one is the Apothecary, one has banner), 1 Terminator with Chain Fist and Assault Cannon
4 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS, 1 Terminator with Chain Fist and Assault Cannon- 280
3*2 Land Speeders, 3 with MM/HF and 3 with MM/Typhoon (one of each per squad)

Tactics with the list are simple. Got first turn? Deploy 2 squads, Assault with 3 squads (2 assault cannon squads, 1 chain fist/CML squad) making sure that Belial goes with the non-banner and the Libby with the Banner (both of which enter first turn). Have speeders run around and melt/missile things while trying to stay hidden.

Alternatively we could strip the "ablative" MM/HF speeders, take out the non-Assault Cannon squad chain fists and throw in a 6th CML Deathwing squad, but I think this makes our speeders a little bit too fragile.

Not sure if it's the most competitive list, but what do you all think about the list? Good, bad, almost there? Any way, this looks like a very fun list to run and is definitely VERY different from my current force. Who knows- maybe Defending Humanity will start flourishing the Deathwing soon...

*All images are owned by Games-Workshop